Are Mormons Christians?


Yesterday, on the Glen Beck show on CNN, Glen had Al Sharpton as a guest to answer questions about comments Sharpton made about the Mormon religion.  Sharpton is accused of being a bigot  For those that are not sure what the term “bigot” means, the dictionary defines it as:

“One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.”

Being partial to your own faith is not being a bigot, it is only when you are intolerant to others who do not believe as you do.  You can say your faith is the only way to believe and not be a bigot, but if you say no one else can believe any other way but yours, then you cross over to be a bigot.

My belief about my faith is as the Bible clearly mentions that there is only one way unto God and that is through faith in Yeshua (Jesus).  No, I do not believe any other religion has a way to God and that all must come through Yeshua.  For those that have never had the opportunity, I do not know what God will do in those situations, but if you have had the opportunity and rejected Him, there is only one future for that person.

So, because I believe there is only one way to God, does that make me a bigot?  Not really, as I do not say everyone must believe as I do, it is up to them to believe as they wish as long as it does not affect my life and my beliefs.

Back to the show, Beck asked Sharpton at point blank if he believes Mormons are Christians and Sharpton replied that they where.  It is then the opinion of Al Sharpton that people who hold the beliefs of the Mormon religion are “Christians”.  So, what does it take to be a “Christian”?  Can Mormon doctrines be called “Christian”?

The first and primary point that really answers this question is what and who is God?  To a Mormon, the doctrine has been “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be".  They say that God was once a man and that he obtained Godhood, and likewise we can become God.  They even believe that those that follow a good Mormon life will become God and rule over a planet of their own as they see the position of their God today.  Can this fit with the first tenet of the Christian Faith?

As Christians, we believe that God is eternal both in past and present.  That He is the only God and is expressed in three personages (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit) but still only one God.  This is the same as our design being one person but having a body, soul and spirit all in one.  We believe God has always been God and is the “only” God, that there is no other and will be no other God.  Man is not God, nor was God anything but God.  God is without change!  (As I see it, this is an obvious requirement for any entity claiming to be God, see my posting:

http://ReflectedThought.com/ChristianLife/archive/2006/08/19/ I_AM_An_Explanation_Of_Existance.aspx

So, we really need not go any further in the comparison of the religions.  If Mormons clearly do not believe the the God described in the Bible and expressed in creation, then they cannot believe who Yeshua (Jesus) really is, that He is God and is part of the Godhead.  Without that, you cannot be a Christian regardless of your actions, nor how much your say you believe in a god.  There is only one true God and to be called a Christian, you are required to believe in that one true God.

What about all the good they do, does not that make them Christians?  No, it does not matter if you give your life for the poor or needed, nor if you do good from the day your are born to until the day you die, you cannot be good enough to save yourself or Yeshua would not have had to come and die to give us a way to those of use that are unrighteous to become righteous in the sight of God.  If any person could be that good to meet God's requirement, Yeshua would not have had to come and die, He is the open door for those that are lost, where we enter in who are not righteous in ourselves but obtain righteousness through His sacrifice.

Yes, many Mormons do good and are centered around family and are an example at how the entire Christian church “should” be, but that does not make them Christians, only accepting Yeshua's atonement for your sins can give you the true label of being a Christian.  Although there are many people who are not Christian, that still call themselves Christian, they are not “true” Christians!

One other point I have with several different religions along with the Mormon religion.  Throughout the Bible we see doctrine change only by the hand of God.  We have creation by the hand of God, then we have Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden and a new faith begins.  Then we have the flood again by the hand of God.  Later we see God call Abraham and then followed by Mose where they received the law of God, yet again from God.  We then finally have Yeshua come to bring another change again by the hand of God. 

The true Christian faith only changes its beliefs by the hand of God not the revelation to person.  In several of these religions though, the headship of the religion have the rights to change it as they wish (usually by some revelation the claim came from God).  This is another area that the Christian faith is different from other religions, the faith is not controlled by man but by God.  If a person comes to you that has a view of the Christian faith that is not clearly outlined in the Bible, then you are not to believe it regardless of what you think.  The faith is not up to modification, it is the “faith” not a social club, not a man made institution that is able to be managed by mankind.

So, to wrap it up, Mormons can be good people but there are not Christians!

 

posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 3:27 AM
Filed Under: ** All Posts   Misc Thoughts  
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Comments

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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Jennifer
on 5/11/2007 7:37 PM
I am a mormon and yes, dammit, mormons are Christians. I don't believe in the man made nicene creed. Do you think that all the times in the New Testament when Christ was praying to the Father that he was praying to himself? Yes, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are one, just as Christ commands the saints to be as one. They are also separate beings - they have different roles, but the same purpose, they are one. I believe there is no greater act that ever happened on the face of this planet than the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. He took upon himself all the sins and sufferings and pains and sicknesses of mankind, in an infinite way that cannot be fully understood - he did it for us, so that next to our own best efforts, our inevitable failures in life would be wiped clean, that me may return to the presense of God and not be cast out forever. The hand of God is usually manifest through the people on this earth who he uses as instruments in his hand. Otherwise, there would be no point in learning and growing in faith - there would be no purpose in faith. And why is it that people think the Bible is God's final word? It is not the final word of God. Just because a writer of one of the books in the Bible says not another word should be added does NOT mean that he was referring to the entire Bible itself, as the many books of the Bible had not even been compiled yet. Many books were left out - just look at the apochrypha.
Anyone who thinks mormons aren't Christian are ignorant or/and faithless
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Thinker
on 5/13/2007 1:02 AM
First, I am sorry if it offends you that you are not a Christian. As mentioned, Mormons cannot be Christians as they do not believe in the God of the Bible. If you believe that God always has been and will forever be God and that no man can ever be God or a God and you believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is God's "only" begotten Son and that He is part of God, who died on a cross to pay the price for the sin of the world and then was raised from the dead and acceneded to Heaven and you have asked Him to come in and be your Lord, then yes you are a Christian, but this is the ONLY way you can be a "true" Christian!

Mormon faith teaches that "their" God is just one of many Gods and that he once was a man who became God and as he did so can other men. That is not Christian regardless of whatever the other parts a person may believe. You either believe the God of the Bible or you do not, it is up to the individual, but you cannot be a Christian and not believe in the one and true eternal God.

Yeshua is one part of the God head, the three personages of God, not three individual beings, just one, but with three different views (or as Trinitarians as myself believe, three wills in one being) the same as we are, flesh, soul and spirit. Yeshua was with God because He is God, He came here to put on flesh to pay the price for all sin as no human could do such a thing. It is clear thoughout the Bible that there is no other God other than the one God of the Bible and their never can be any more than just the one. If you read the plain old King James or New King James Bible, it is obvious of the meaning.

You might also want to talk with someone that can explain these matters better than I, such as a pastor of a local Christian church (such as Full Gospel, Assemebly of God, etc). It is something you should check out..
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Steve StC
on 5/15/2007 12:10 PM
You might be interested in the latest writings of Blake Ostler, LDS Philosopher, on the subject of "God the Eternal Father". Analyzing the Bible, LDS scriptures, the teaching of church leaders, and especially the King Follett Discourse and the Sermon in the Grove in Nauvoo, he draws a view with a truly eternal God and no infinite regress of Gods.
http://ldschangingfocus.blogspot.com/2007/04/lds-thoughts-on-king-follett-discourse.html
Get his book and read it, to understand how some Latter-day Saints think today.
Steve StC
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Thinker
on 5/16/2007 2:45 PM
Steve, from the sounds of that post (the partial chapter 12 of the book referenced), it appears some in the Mormon faith are running into one of the problems. The part of (1) and (2) of the post about God either not starting as eternal or losing being eternal for a period of time, is a prime example of the issues of trying to blend the God of the Bible with the one of the Mormon faith. The only conclusion to the issue, is that God cannot be God without always being eternal, you cannot stop being eternal nor can you ever become eternal, you can go forward eternally (immortal), but to be eternal, you would have to be eternally past also.

The other hook is that for something to be eternal both past and future the being would have to be without change, as change relates to time and something that is truly eternal does not relate to time. That is another point that I like about the Bible, because God calls Himself the “I AM”, volumes are locked in that name. In the Gospels, Yeshua (Jesus) said “before Abraham was, I AM”, again showing exactly “who” He is and that He is outside the realm of time.

The Mormon faith seems to be built upon the idea that there is a “chain” of Gods, but the problem is then that a God is not really a God as it is not eternal, it “becomes” eternal future, but the word “becomes” shows it is not eternal past, thus not really a God. So, this opens the door to who is the first God and what created Him? The playing around with the term “eternal” is the issue, a being is either eternal, always has existed and will always exist or it is not. The primary definition of the word “eternal” is something being without beginning AND without end, you cannot “become” eternal.

Then there is the other part “as God is man will become”. That is the same thing that brought down Adam and Eve, the snake promised them that they would be just like God, and that destroyed them bringing death into the world. No human will ever become God nor have any form of divinity, period. We will put on immortality and all humans will live forever in one state or another, but that is different from divinity or eternal. We have all been created and thus can never be “eternal”.

To me, it would seem a Mormon believer would question the issues since there is such a contradiction in the foundations of their belief. The Mormon faith is supposed to have come out of the Bible’s view of God and the gospel, but around 1,800 years later. If it were me, I would look back at the roots, now 2,000 years early and see if something has not been lost. Find a place where the contradictions seem to fade away or at least are far fewer..
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Carl Strohmeyer
on 6/24/2007 2:46 PM
Although I do believe core Mormon teachings do not hold up to the historical church, what I find interesting though is that many other Church groups do not either such as the Four Square Church. The historical Church view and is not even close to the Four Square when it comes to Charismatic Gifts (especially that you MUST speak in tongues as proof of your redemption). Yet most Evangelicals look the other way here and in many other false doctrines in other so called Christian Denominations while attacking Mormons.
My experience as someone who once attended a Baptist Church and currently lives in a small Evangelical town is that many of these church member forget that Jesus taught us to: “Love the Lord God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself” and also forget that in Matt. 7:16 and following: “You will know them by their fruits” and “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit”.

My family has been severely harmed emotionally, physically, and financially due to judgments and rumors that have even followed us to our new home over my son’s autism, my wife’s nervous breakdown and my so called failures. Yet I have found many Mormons to be much less supportive.
Bottom line is that many Evangelicals are like the Priests of Jesus day in their correct knowledge of the scriptures but total lack of application while many Mormons seem to get that part right; who is bearing good fruit?
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Thinker
on 6/26/2007 4:51 PM
Carl,

I do not see any place in the Bible that requires a person to Speak in Tongues. There are several passages that some believe are to be taken then way, but I do not see it. The only real requirements is to believe in who God is (all might eternal God who has always been and always will be God), believe that Yeshua is sent from God as part of God who paid the debt for out sins then assended into heaven until He comes again to gather His own and setup his kindom until the great day of Judgement comes where everone will be judged. If a person meets this requirement, then they may repent of their sins (turn away from) and yield to Yeshua Lord as their life. He will come into them and they will be Bord Again. This is the only way to heaven, there is no other. If this step is not met, there is no sense in considering what you are doing, good or bad, it does not matter. You reject Yeshua, you are lost, plain and simple. This is the basic requirement to be called a Chirstian.

Any Four Square people I know, believe in the above and thus I will call them Christian brothers and sisters. Now, that said, it does not mean people will all do the "work" we should. Yeshua said that not all that call Him Lord will enter in to the kingdom. He also says that He will say "depart from my ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you". Of course, He is not saying that He never really knew them as He knows everyone, saint or sinner, but rather, they did not show forth anything that is expected by simple nature of a Christian. As an example, a child might be caught doing some great wrong that is not of his expected nature and his father might say something like "I do not even know who you are anymore". That does not mean he does not know him nor that his not a child, but simply, his actions do not follow the expected behavior.

As for Spiritual Gifts, I do believe in this power and use this power, but because someone has not yielded theirselves to this power does not mean they are not Born Again. When you repent and ask Yeshua into your life you are as saved as you ever will be and have received all the Holy Spirit. It is when you learn to yield yourself to the Holy Spirit does He then flow into the rest of your being from deep within your spirit. So, the works of the Gifts are an outflow not an inflow.

While many Mormons do focus on family values and good nature by the flesh, that still does not save. Only the above saves. If there were some way to be savd by your good works Yeshua would never had to of come and died to provide the way. For anyone to think that any good deeds can save you means they do not believe in God.

There are many who claim to be Christian in Christian denominations that have no clue what it really means to be a Christian or even how one becomes a Christian. Here again though, they are not Christians either, it does not matter what church or denomination you attened, it is our personal relationship with the God of the Bible and nothing else.

There are some denominations now though that I really do not consider Christian either, not because they do not believe in the above, but that they have embraced open, unrepentant sin, they do not seem to accept sin after conversion which is a heresy. They may say they believe in the same thing that Christians believe, but inside they are still not believing in the God of the Bible, it is more a God of their own creation, one without judgement or righteousness, a God that just accepts evil.. Again those are not Christians either.

I hate to be so hard on a point, but this is the main and foundational point, without it, there is no faith, everyone is able to create any form of God they desire. That is why, I will stand the line at say there is a minimum to being a Christian and anything outside that line is not a Christian.
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Carl Strohmeyer
on 6/28/2007 4:56 PM
You make excellent points and your first paragraph is undeniable truth.
However, what someone says, believes and does are different issues.

If someone says they believe in the One True God (Jesus) one paid the price for their sins once and for all then turns around and unrepentantly murders; are they really in agreement with your point or Matt. 7:16?

Also back to Foursquare, I am not saying they are not Christians, I am saying they have baggage that can prevent them from seeing the truth (as do Mormons). Also if a Mormon believes in the point you made, despite some other issues, I believe they are saved and again Matt. 7:16 is evidence of this.

Many modern Denominations have strayed from the Gospel whether the many Baptist I know who do not believe in eternal security (is this not works?), which is NOT historic Church doctrine.

And to be most blunt myself, there is no way a true Christian can do the horrific things (that have nearly ended in death mind you) that several Evangelicals (Baptists and foursquare among them) and truly profess Jesus as Lord. If this is not true, the result would not be one I can imagine or fathom.
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Thinker
on 6/29/2007 1:17 AM
There is one point being missed here, it is not possible for us to know the heart of anyone, only God can, but unsaved people can do good things and likewise people who have been born again can do bad things. I think the meaning of Mat 7:15-23 is trying to show us how to have an idea of those that are claiming to be Christian leaders, that confess they believe in the one true God and have been born again, not just any person on the planet. There are many people in many different religions that can do good, but that does not mean they have relationship with God.

Again, the passage refers to those that claim a relationship with the true God, those you would believe are a Christian (and even more so, not just Christians but prophets as mentioned in 15, this is to show who is a true prophet of God), if they are not followed by fruit (which many will argue what the fruit really is), then they are not to be believed they are currently in right standing with God. That does not mean they have not in the past nor will in the future, it is only showing the current status of the person. If they are in unrepentant sin, they are not in right standing with God, no way around it.

For example, the story of the prodigal son, many consider that a story of a lost sinner coming to God, but when we look at it closer, we see he "is" a son who has turned to his flesh and later returns home to "his" father. Relationship is there already, he had everything with the father before he left, he was not a servant or stranger, but a son. It shoes that we can follow our flesh and walk our own path to destruction if we desire, but we can also turn back and repent of our ways and come home to God again.

In another example, the Word says "it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have known, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." and then goes on to quote proverbs about a dog returning to his own vomit. Many take this as to mean only unsaved people, but it says they have known (experienced) the way of righteousness and turned from it, thus making themselves worse off than before they even knew the truth.

(... Continued in next post ...)
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Thinker
on 6/29/2007 1:20 AM
(..continued..)

I guess the real issue on this point is that even when we become born again, we still have a free will. After all that is what this is all about, we either have a free will or we are mere robots following a program and thus, we are nothing. Free will does not stop at conversion and it is something we must rule over while we are in this flesh.

Sadly, from personal experience, I can testify that it is easy to intentionally sin even after being born again if you allow your flesh to have its way. I am not perfect and in my past have committed sins that would have got me stoned to death by the old testament Law, but those sins were confessed, repented of and put under the blood and God chooses to remember them no more, thank the great God for grace! Every Christian I have ever known also have had sin in their lives even after conversion at some time. If we could be perfect we would not need grace, but we cannot and the flesh will still draw us to sin if we do not keep it in check.

Yes, any Moron can be saved "if" they believe in the one true God and have accepted Yeshua as the Lord of their life, just as any person from any religion can. But, if they believe in the God outlined in the Mormon doctrine, then no, they are not saved and cannot be until they discover the true God, it does not matter what "works" they perform, they still have not crossed the line to become born again. If you do not have a regenerated Spirit, you cannot inherit the Kingdom of God regardless of what you do, how many tears your shed nor how much you beg, there is only one thing that can make you a follower of Yeshua.

Quite of a bit of this will be the focus of one my other sites (www.TheAwakening.com) will head in the very near future, which will based around passages such as Romans 12:1-2 that following God and presenting ourselves holy unto God is our "reasonable" service and should just be the normal outflow from being born again. The goal is to bring back to our focus "what" Yeshua has done for us and to awaken ourselves to always keep in our mind all we say we believe along with "who" God really is including all aspects of God such as Old and New Testament views of God. I believe that if we can put down our flesh long enough to get a firm grasp on Who God is and what we really believe, it should change our walk and our talk, we would be a different people and hunger for God everyday, not just at a Sunday service.

Sorry, started to drift there from the topic. The real issue is that yes, good people can do bad things and passages like Mat 7:15-23 needs to be in context with Mat 7:15 so that we know it is not just trying to figure out who is and is not a Christian. It is much like I Cor 12:3 "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. ". Some might take that as saying anyone that says "Jesus is Lord" is a Christian and that no unsaved person can say that. Actually, that is not what the passage is referring to, but taken out of the context of the prior and later passages it might sound that way and you really have no clue that it is referring to the Spiritual Gifts and not determining if your are or are not a Christian.

Actions cannot tell us if you have ever been born again, but they can be useful in showing what you current level of faith is, if you already claim to be born again and are in full agreement of the common faith. If that last part is not made then the rest does not matter.

Thanks for the posts, it is an interesting dialog!

BTW, howdy from the other side of the hill, I am over here in Klamath Falls ;)
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Carl Strohmeyer
on 6/30/2007 4:50 AM
Again you make good points. However see a different view of these same points. I re-read Matt. 7:15 and the content around this and still see this as spiritual evidence of belief. Matt. 22:37 sums it up as I see it.

The story of the prodigal son shows me someone who has fallen away but NOT lost his salvation. Many evangelicals teach salvation can be lost (which is works, not grace).

Your point of all Christians sinning after conversion is good, I just have a different take on this; when I have sinned (especially towards someone else), my spirit burned against me until I apologized (King David confessed his sin with Bathsheba). However many Evangelicals I have known or met have found no need to apologize for the harm they have done to others. Just one example is a Lady who came into our home to 'help' after the birth of my son and my wife's nervous breakdown. She came to several false assumptions that led her to say and do things that harmed our family (my wife started an affair shortly there after and my daughter was harmed through this affair). Yet when a Sheriff Deputy even confronted this evil person with the evidence she refused to repent and even a call to her Pastor (Calvary Church) would not bring any kind of repentance either. This is just one very shortened example of what I have witnessed and continuing to witness (as the rumors are still circulated by Evangelicals which has all but destroyed my local chances of financial recovery) all the while I see so called Christians blasting Mormons yet having problems with the log in their eye.

PS, Greetings from Grants Pass




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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Thinker
on 6/30/2007 5:29 PM
Carl,

I cannot agree with you more about Mat 22:37-40 (others go with that passage). This is where it all is at, absolutely! Of course, the first part of loving the Lord God with everything you are, the first step is that you must know "Who" God is, you cannot create a god of your own as the Mormons have done and still fulfill this passage. The Scripture is talking about the one and only true God who has always been and will always be God, there is no other, period. Anyone who believes differently "does not know God".

The story of the prodigal son, the father in the story says his son "was dead and is alive again; lost and now found". It was only he turned from his wicked ways and came back was he saved. But as with so many Scriptures, different people take them different ways. God has one meaning though, and it is up to us to find it, there should be only one doctrine, one faith, one denomination, not over 10,000 of them, but as with other things, that is another topic ;)

As you point out works cannot obtain your salvation, it is by grace and that alone that you may be saved. That said, "works" can lose your salvation. Unconfessed, unrepentant sin will seperate you from God regardless of who you are or what you have done over your life. The Scripture says "IF" we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive them. But, the topic of "eternal insecurity" is a post I thought I had already made on this blog, but found I still need to get that one posted. Maybe this next week. Stay tuned for that one, it goes right along with predestination.

I do sense a bit of hurt in your postings though, from others who claim to be Christian but do not seem to live the life or might be Christian that are not currently walking wtih God. This is a sad reality of this era of time, as there are a multitude of people claiming to be Christian, but often it is only in word and not true conversion or perhaps, they are just caught up with the things of the world and are not receiving much light.

I am sorry that wolves have wrecked havoc in your situation, there are a lot of people going through the fire lately. You made mention of your son having autism and your wife having nervous breakdown along with other issues.

When you are under the gun in life, many things can seem to irritate and cause pain. Even the trivial things of day-to-day life can get to me and I am not in no where near the hard road you appear to be. With me, it is more that I want to spend time seeking God's face to get straight answers and try to get beyond what is classified the "normal" church, but as with other things, that is another topic and mostly going to be handled on my other site.

Anyway, while this is does not pertain to the topic of this thread, I am curious, if you do not mind me asking, what kind of help do you seek? That is, you mentioned that people have harmed you and your family in many different areas of life, if the best outcome with others would happen, what would that be in your life? What would heal your wounds?
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Carl Strohmeyer
on 7/1/2007 11:10 AM
Thank you for your response.
My view of Matt. 22:37 is that the one true God is implied but not stated and that obviously if you believe in many Gods you have a problem, however defining this as the Trinity (which I agree with, but still does not make it 100% correct) or other man implied doctrines. Many doctrines have been added or subtracted from the Church over the last two millennia.

Here are a few examples of strange Church doctrine:
Augustine, On the Psalms, 50.2 Augustine insists that such individuals are gods by grace rather than by nature, but they are gods nevertheless.).

Augustine, Luther, & Calvin believed that man's nature was altered and irreparably damaged by original sin. He stated, "Infants bring their own damnation with them from their mothers' wombs; the moment they are born, their natures are odious and abominable to God".
The way I see it infants inherit certain effects of the fall, but not the responsibility for any sin as a result of Adam's or Eve's transgression. From the foundation of the world, the Atonement of Jesus Christ makes amends for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam. Therefore, baptism is not needed until children reach a state of accountability. They are redeemed from the beginning by the grace of Jesus Christ, who’s Atonement cleanses them of the effects of the fall.

As for loss of salvation, I do not believe a Loving God would remove the gift of salvation (such as Arminius teaches), otherwise when one commits suicide out of either desperation or what some may call heroism they would be dammed. I believe King Saul is in the presence of the Lord. Also even though I believe the Bible is the Word of God, I do not hold to ALL the books at the same level, otherwise there would need to be a lot more stonings, slavery and such. 1 Cor. 10:13 is a good example of where this just not always hold up as I have personally experienced.

I have done a lot of reading of Church history over the last few years and there are lot of changes and inconsistencies with the Bible. Also I have read the book of Mormon and even though I do not agree with all the teachings I do not see most of the statements contributed to Mormons such as the belief in many Gods. Yes they do not believe in the Trinity, but not all mainline Christians do either. Either way I do not see this as Damnable.

Your last comment is very kind of you to ask (and fair in light of the charges I have made). This is not easily answered in the amount of time or space I have, so I will very much abbreviate my answer.

Continued:
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Carl Strohmeyer
on 7/1/2007 11:19 AM
The best outcome as simplified as I can make it would be:
(1) God to show me that what I have done is right (regardless of the many mistakes I have made, both real and imagined). This would mean the constant re-living of my failures (real and imagined) would at least curtail. One example is business. I have had many SEO experts write me as to why business is not getting the response based on the content and work I have done. King David and most others in the Bible have been blessed through failures.
I have made many sacrifices for my family and many others (I gave up my dream of aviation after $37,000) training to take care of my family. I guess a little reward from God in this life would be nice (instead managing childcare, business, my poor health now, and even collect recyclables in the wee hours to get by).
I sold my home in LA to end up living in an RV for 18 months and now a horrible deteriorating house, all the while the house I lived in LA for 12 years that gained $0 value suddenly gets resold for a gain of $220,000, what a reward for doing what is right!

Remove the constant premonitions and nightmares that run 80% accurate and where I have seen both marriages affairs, my Daughters molestation and sooo much more (on a positive note I have seen my middle daughters blessings too).

Finally, though this may seem silly, but I had a very tormented childhood and was told by a teacher that I had for two different grades I was and would be a failure. I was laughed at and labeled gay due to my small size (which is not heredity). Girls and women have given me all sorts of nicknames (worm, ECT), even my current and past wife. I have has three gay marriage proposals and even have been stalked and touched inappropriately. AT a weight of 120 lbs for 5'8" I way less the proper weight for a 5'2" woman (even though I am a man). It would be nice to look like and be treated like a man some day.
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Carl Strohmeyer
on 7/1/2007 11:20 AM
Continued:

(2) As for others; it sure would be nice if others would just apologize (which would show a caring God and prove Matt 7:15-23 true and not just a verse in the Bible. I have apologized to persons (Christians) who wronged me just for snapping back in defense.
There is a rumor going around this town that I have failed three times in business and a Christian (Ex Mormon too) told his daughter who was helping me start a new business in this town about these so called failures (which are not true, I sold my business at my wife's request, I dropped a major business account because they sexually harassed my employees, and I lost my previous pet store because I moved to Oregon and left it with others who stabbed me in the back who also happened to be Christians). This girl left me hanging and her now husband (who is in Youth ministry in the Foursquare Church) picked up these rumors and added to them and has 'run' with them.
Even my own brother in law has allowed them to perpetuate all the while I tried to help his business and poured my heart and soul into it only to find I was kept around for pity (despite my years of business experience and education of which I was an A student at Cal Poly University).

If others from my old Church in LA could just feel the pull of God and apologize for abandoning me and my family in our darkest hour would be nice. When I received my daughters journal describing the pain she received from the abuse during the affair from an employee (who had received it from her daughter), I had my daughter on a plane out of LA in quick order to be with my sister here. When we moved NO ONE from our church saw us off (even though several non Christian business acquaintances did, one very tearfully stated that my "God must really hate me" [she was Buddhist]).
When my son was in and out of the hospital for the first year of life, on special machines all night to pump food into his fragile system, NO ONE was there from my church but to criticize me.
When my son was diagnosed with Autism, he was KICKED OUT of church nursery.
When my wife's affair took a very dark turn (the man came over and punched me, stole $80,000 though my wife and harmed my daughter), a person who worked for the LA justice department at our church turned his back on us.

Finally part two would be nice, but would be necessary if I could see some light on part 1. Otherwise either everyone is right and I am a worthless human being or I am worshipping at the wrong church and God is trying to move me (I currently attend a Presbyterian Church where at least they are kind).
This is why I am reading much about Church history and also the Book of Mormon, as I wonder if that is where the real truth is. My Dad who is an Agnostic has also questioned this much as the judgmentalism of the Evangelical Church has turned him totally from God.
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Thinker
on 7/2/2007 10:15 PM
Carl,

Even though there are two different views on the Godhead in the Christian denominations (Unitarians and Trinitarians which I believe are saying about the same thing, that there is one God in three different views), the true Christian denominations believe that there is one God who is almight, has all power, is all knowing, who has always been and will always be and there are no other God's. That is one of the cornerstones of the faith and anything outside of that is not Christian, that line cannot be crossed. The Scriptures are quite clear on that point.

As you mention about the other's views on children being damned from birth due to inheritted sin, this is one of the axe points to me about predestination. Some have taken this point to show that God has made some people to simply damn them for eternity. I think they have studed themselves stupid! That is not the nature of God as represented in the Bible. We are predestined by what God knows we will or will not do, what He knows we will or will not be, not because He makes us do one thing or another, that we are created to be damned, the choice is still ours. But that is best left to the post I hope to make over the next month about Eternal Security and Predestination.

Yes, God will never take our salvation away, just like He will never condem a person to hell, it is our choice that does that. Much like the passage about the nation of Israel on passover, where they were to make the doors of their homes with the blood. As long as they remained in those homes they where saved, as long as they obeyed God's command, they would live and not die, but if they would take one step out, they would have died with the rest.

As for suicide, I do not know, nor does anyone else for sure, but I sure would not want to leave this world in that manner. Once you leave here, there is nothing a person can do. I hope that the case is that God knows the person's condition, but God is a God of justice and He must uphold justice regardless of desires. He knows our every thought and will judge accordingly.
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Thinker
on 7/2/2007 10:16 PM
(* continued *)

> Also even though I believe the Bible is the Word of God, I do not hold to ALL the books at the same level... <

Not quite sure what you meant here along with the referrence to 1 Cor 10:13. The Scripture passage you refer to points to us always having a way out of temptation "IF" we choose to take it. Unfortunately, many do not choose that path (I know I have not at times).

>I have done a lot of reading of Church history over the last few years and there are lot of changes and inconsistencies with the Bible.<

Not sure here either what you mean about "changes" and "inconsistencies".

You mentioned reading the Book of Mormon, that book is only of the different books the Mormon faith is based upon and does not go into doctrine. That would be more in the "Doctrine and Covenants" and the "Pearl of Great Price".

You can find more information by searching the interent on "As man is, God once was as God is man may become". While there is a lot of information out there, this was an interesting link:

http://utlm.org/faqs/faqgeneral.htm

and this:

http://utlm.org/onlineresources/contradictionsinldsscriptures.htm

The first and foremost doctrine that clearly sets the Mormon religion as being not Christian is the belief that God was at one time a man and then become God and like God, man, if he does good, will become a God as there are many Gods. That is a God with a capital 'G', deity. That is all that is required to clearly show it is not Christian. While Christians can argue the actual makeup of God, we do not believe we will become God or a God, deity. Anyone who believes they will become deity is also not really a Christian as there is only one God.

The primary purpose of this post "Are Mormons Christians?" is not to tell Moron believers anything, it is mostly to help point out the facts to Christians who do not know the Mormon doctrines and might classify them Christian based on the terms they use (Church of Jesus Christ of later day Saints) and by their good works (which should be an example to the Christian churchs). There are a number of issues, but the first and most important is the God being man and man becoming God doctrine, that closes the deal.

I appreciate all your posts and will respond to the more personal parts in an email. If for some reason you do not receive the email within the next few hours, be sure to let me know. Sometimes spam blockers can get in the way...
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# re: Are Mormons Christians?
Posted by Judah
on 8/9/2007 1:16 PM
Thanks for this post, Thinker, and the whole conversation Jen and Carl. Very interesting stuff.
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